The UpWords Podcast
Each week, we sit down with scholars, authors, and leaders to explore faith, vocation, culture, and what it means to think and live well. For curious Christians and honest seekers. An initiative of SLBF STUDIO at Upper House in Madison, WI.
The UpWords Podcast
From Newsroom to Pulpit: A Conversation with Phil Haslanger
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Phil Haslanger has spent decades straddling two worlds that don't always trust each other: journalism and the church. In this episode of The UpWords Podcast, host John Terrill sits down with the longtime Capital Times editor turned ordained pastor for an in-person conversation recorded at Upper House in Madison, Wisconsin, as part of a summer series spotlighting local leaders whose faith shapes their public work.
Over a 35-year career at The Capital Times, Phil worked as a reporter, city editor, editorial page editor, and managing editor before entering ordained ministry with the United Church of Christ in 2007. He talks about growing up in an almost entirely white Marinette, Wisconsin, how his image of God has shifted from "someone at a control panel" to what he calls "the force of love in the universe," and what a career built on journalistic skepticism taught him about pastoral care.
The conversation also covers Phil’s work building an interfaith network of Fitchburg-area churches, his award-winning advocacy against domestic violence, the line between prophetic public witness and partisan politics, and where he sees both progress and failure in how the American press covers religion — including a candid take on AI's growing and risky role in newsrooms.
ABOUT OUR GUEST
Phil Haslanger has spent his career — and his second career — straddling two worlds: journalism and ministry. A UW–Madison graduate (BA in sociology, 1971; MA in journalism, 1973), he spent 35 years at The Capital Times in Madison as a reporter, city editor, editorial page editor, and managing editor, and for years wrote a column on the intersection of faith and politics.
Phil grew up Catholic in Marinette, Wisconsin, and briefly considered the priesthood before coming to UW–Madison to study sociology. In 2000, he and his wife left the Catholic Church for the United Church of Christ; he entered the UCC's lay pastor program, was ordained in 2007, and served for a decade as pastor of Memorial United Church of Christ in Fitchburg before retiring in 2017. He later served as a parish associate at Christ Presbyterian Church in Madison, retiring again in 2024.
He was inducted into the Wisconsin Newspaper Association's Hall of Fame in 2021, named a distinguished alumnus of the UW–Madison School of Journalism and Mass Communication in 2022, and received the Governor's Council on Domestic Abuse's annual justice award in 2015 for mobilizing local faith communities to support victims of domestic violence. He is married to Ellen Reuter, and they have four adult children and seven grandchildren.
Resource Links
- UW–Madison Center for Journalism Ethics: https://ethics.sjmc.wisc.edu/
- Religion News Service: https://religionnews.com/
- The Capital Times: https://captimes.com/
CONNECT WITH US
Subscribe to The UpWords Podcast wherever you listen to podcasts and visit slbf.org/studio to learn more about our work at the intersection of faith, the academy, and the marketplace.
This episode was created by the SLBF STUDIO at Upper House.
Produced by Daniel Johnson and Dave Conour
Edited by Dave Conour
Cold open — Phil on his evolving image of God
SPEAKER_03I think over time my image of God has shifted to being sort of the force of love in the universe, the force that holds the universe together, that keeps everything going, the force that I want to be connected with, a force that carries me along in good times and in bad times. And the notion that, you know, Jesus was here, and Jesus is like the human revelation of what God is about, about love and caring and standing up for people who are in trouble. And that, and then God's Spirit sort of sustaining all of this. That all becomes how I think about God now, not necessarily as someone at a control panel doing things.
Show introduction
SPEAKER_00Welcome to the Upwards Podcast, where we explore the intersection of Christian faith in the academy, the church, and the marketplace. This summer, we're featuring leaders from right here in the Madison community, people whose work is making a tangible difference in our city. In a time when public trust is fragile and disagreement often turns into division, how do we learn to ask better questions, listen more carefully, and hold our convictions with both confidence and humility? Phil Hasslinger has served as a journalist, editor, pastor, teacher, and community leader here in Madison, helping people navigate difficult conversations with integrity and respect. Here's the conversation with John Terrell and Phil Hasslinger.
Welcoming Phil Haslanger to the studio
SPEAKER_01Well, Phil, it is great to have you here in the studio. Thanks for making the trip from Fitchburg. All the way from Fitchburg. And I I was reflecting as I was preparing that I've known you for over a decade now. It's been about 11, 12 years. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And it's such a joy to be here because Upper House overtime has become one of my favorite places in Madison. So how wonderful to be here for this. Well, we enjoy you.
SPEAKER_01We are delighted every time you step foot in our um facility here. So thank you again for being here. I'm really excited about this conversation. As you know, we're featuring some local heroes, people that we've looked up to just with their activism and their faith convictions and their work in the city. And uh we get to feature you today. So that this conversation has been something I've looked forward to. Your background is so diverse. You've had, you know, multiple careers. It probably seems more seamless to you, but as you look from the outside in, a lot of years in journalism, leading journalistic organizations, and then a decade or a couple decades uh in pastoral work.
SPEAKER_03Right. And don't forget on my my very first job working on a dairy queen. So, you know.
SPEAKER_01I worked in an ice cream shop very early on, and I landscaped um but both useful skills and an adult life, you know, being able to take care of your yard and being able to take care of your stomach for late-night snacks, both both really uh uh important skills.
Growing up in Marinette, Wisconsin
SPEAKER_01I want to go back to the beginning of where you grew up. I know you're originally from Wisconsin, Marinette. As you think about that community, what's something about that community that has really influenced who you are as a person?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I think there are a couple of things. So Marinette is the northeast corner of the state, right on the border with Michigan, on the Menominee River. The river, Green Bay, which is at the end of the Menominee River and part of the Marinette area, that sense of being around water and having an appreciation for nature and walking along the river, I think, has been kind of a constant. It's kind of a meditative thing in one sense. Also just enjoying the beauty of what's out there. Um, a second piece, not surprising, I think, for people wherever you come from, just friends I still have there. I still go back to see friends. My family is all gone from up there at this point, but that connection. And the other thing, which I we may come back to in the course of this, but Marinette, when I was growing up, was an extraordinarily white community. I don't think I ever saw anyone who wasn't white. The diversity was, you know, Polish, German, Irish, Catholic, Protestant, a little bit of Jewish, but nothing not white. And so coming from that environment into a series of other environments was really important. And Marinette has gotten a little more diverse, but not much.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And I know that's been an important thread. Um, working toward um racial equality has been a part of your life, life's work. So we'll come back to that.
Straddling two worlds: journalism and ministry
SPEAKER_01I also want at the outset here to touch on a little bit of uh living in two different career worlds. You spent a number of years with the Cap Time and other journalism organizations, and you also spent time leading faith-based community ministries, particularly uh pastoring a church. What did each one teach you? And in what ways do you wish those two worlds might communicate more naturally or regularly?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I think for me it was really an important juxtaposition of worlds that are very different. I mean, a phrase I often use is I straddle the worlds of skepticism, journalism, and belief, church. I think I have learned from each of those some approaches to the world, to be willing to ask questions, to dig into things, to try and learn more, skepticism, and belief there are some things you can't show factually, that they're things that really shape our being, and those are the things we hold in belief. And be able to hold both of those together has been really important for me.
SPEAKER_01What is, maybe if I could just dive into that a little bit more, what is one way that your journalistic background helped you as a pastor? Or if you could even uh speak to a particular situation where having that training and background helped you to be more effective with your congregation?
SPEAKER_03Aaron Powell I think learning how to ask questions, which is a core skill for a journalist. And as I'm meeting people in a congregation and trying to learn about their lives, be able to say, well, tell me why you think this. Tell me how you got to this point. Those are questions the journalists might ask. I think they're also really important questions for a pastor to ask people and to be able to listen to what they're saying.
SPEAKER_01And I know you've also spent time at the university in advisory capacity
Inside the UW Center for Journalism Ethics
SPEAKER_01working with the School of Journalism on journalistic ethics, right? I wonder if you could speak a little bit to that. And then I want to ask you a question just about where journalism stands in public opinion these days and how ethics or high standards of integrity might in some ways provide an appropriate defense for some of the attacks it faces. Aaron Powell Sure.
SPEAKER_03Let me just say a word about the Center for Journalism Ethics for folks who may not be familiar with it. It's part of the University of Wisconsin School of Journalism. It started about 15 years ago. I've been involved with it for the last half dozen or so years on the advisory council. And it provides several things. It gives journalists around the country a place to call and say, help me think about this issue. It also works with students. It runs a, has a conference every year. It gives out an award each year for journalists who struggled with really difficult ethical issues. That's what the Center for Journalism Ethics does. I think your point that journalism may not be held in the highest regard today, and I don't know that journalism has ever been held in the highest regard. There's the history of journalism has good times and bad times. It has good reporters and bad reporters, a whole mix of like humanity right there. At the moment, there seems to be a lot of distrust in all institutions, including journalism. And some of that is fed by, and this is not new, political figures have always complained about journalism. More so now, I think. The fact that there's a much wider array of sources you can get your news or not news from has an effect on that. People tend to look for things that will reinforce their own beliefs and maybe not want to listen to others. All of that comes into play. So where does the word journalism ethics come into this? And I think part of the challenge is there are so many different kinds of news sources at this point. A lot of them don't care about journalism ethics. The institutions that do and are trying to think about it and struggle with these issues, one of the things I think helps, at least in terms of public perception, is when newspapers are really clear. We make mistakes to admit the mistakes, to be very public about it, to let people know who runs your organization. Is this a local group? Is it a group that has political ties? Is it so you're clear about where the funding in the organization comes from? For reporters, tell a little bit of their own story in some way. The New York Times now is running little bios of the reporters and what their specialties are and what their backgrounds are. Other newspapers do some of that in a variety of ways. Anything to make it clear to readers, viewers, who is it that's trying to tell you the story and what would make you want to believe the story that's there. And then certainly the documentation. One of the things that the internet has added is the potential to link off of stories, to documents, to videos. I can show you where this information comes from. All of those things I think become a part of they're ethically important in terms of making sure we're being clear, that we're being honest and clear and transparent. I think it's also a way to help rebuild some credibility in the news sources you might go to. Now, maybe you don't care. Maybe you just want to have somebody tell you that what you think is true, and here I'll help you think that. There's not a lot ethics can do about that. That's up to the reader, the viewer. But what we can do is try and encourage journalists to be transparent, to be clear, to make corrections when they make mistakes. One of the temptations of journalists is always to say more than what we know, don't do that.
AI, trust, and the future of journalism
SPEAKER_01Yeah, we've talked here on this podcast and certainly in our public forums at Upper House on um artificial intelligence, AI. And I know it plays a major role in journalistic efforts. The organizations have gotten in trouble for misusing AI. Some have kind of declared their stance that they will never use AI or use it in very limited form. What's your perspective on it? Uh, I wonder if you could just offer some helpful short guidance on how to do that.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I think, first of all, within newsrooms, where there actually is a news structure, to be very clear about when you do or don't use AI. You may look up something, you may go to Claude or to Gemini or to ChatGPT and say, can you tell me this? But don't take that as the final word. You need, as with so many things, you need to double check it elsewhere. You certainly don't want AI writing your stories, which a couple of people have gotten in trouble for. There needs to be that human element. There needs to be editors checking what's been written, asking questions about where did you get this information from, show me your sources and such things. Another problem with AI is so much is flowing out that purports to be real, that may be not come from a journalistic source, but may imitate a journalistic source.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03That's a whole other arena. And I think the other thing that's really important for journalism is learning how to verify this information that we're seeing online that may be generated by AI or maybe real. And I think for users, it's important to know who you can go to that you can mostly trust. If you see this on Joe's handy news source, maybe also look at the Wall Street Journal or the New York Times and see are they saying the same thing?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it seems we've got a big problem uh, you know, in our culture. And I think it's just so easy for anybody to sort of position themselves as an expert, right? And and so those are helpful words. And I even we had a off-camera a little bit of an interesting start here because I had to check my bio. We we we helped to uh to generate the bio using AI because your background is in lots of different places and we didn't want to miss any details. And inevitably AI didn't get it exactly right. And so you needed to help us clean that up. Right.
SPEAKER_03And I think that's that's an important part of the process is AI can be really useful. It's not the last word if you're doing research. And then, you know, talk to the person, which you did with me, or find another source that will you can double check this with. And you know, the other piece of this that I think is really rampant these days, conspiracies are not new, but they move a lot faster right now. This week, there's several really good conspiracies kicking around. I won't repeat them here because I don't think any of them are true. So a lot of news organizations are putting effort into saying, no, no, there's no verification of this.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's the helpful word.
A Cap Times legacy: race and Madison's schools
SPEAKER_01Uh I want to shift gears in just a minute here, but let me ask you about your uh one last question about your time at the Cap Times, because it was such a fascinating, important part of your career. You were involved in so many stories as a reporter, but also as a managing editor, a lot of hotly contested issues of all types. Is there a story that sticks out in your mind about this community that today even has a lasting impact?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, it's a in some sense it's a long-running story. I mean, I started out covering politics. There's some contention in that. That was in the 1970s. Yeah. Covered education for a number of years, which I found fascinating. And there's also a lot of contention within the world of education. And one of the issues in Madison in the mid-1970s when I was doing this was racial disparities in our schools. Now, at that point, the number of black students in the Madison schools was very small. But black students and black teachers and black parents felt the schools weren't doing a very good job. And some of the quotes from that story could be used today and they would still apply. Now, about half the school district is not white. So it's changed dramatically. So one of the threads that ran through my time working at the Cap Times was trying to pay attention to issues around race. We did a one of the projects, I hope had some impact. Along with the school district, we did a project called Celebrate Difference, where people wrote about what was important to them about being in a community where there were differences and how could we celebrate them. And the kids in school wrote things. We did a special section. Also, because Madison is a then and still is a very white city. We created a project called Race and Media, where we asked, particularly black leaders, but also other ethnic groups, to come together and meet with media across the media platforms here and talk about what are we doing right, what are we doing wrong, what are we missing? I think over time that's improved some in terms of media coverage. I mean, and that's not just because of that. Yeah. The whole environment has pushed for more of that to happen. Working on hiring people of diverse backgrounds on the newspaper, I don't think we did as good as we wanted to, but we continued to work on that, worked on staff training around that. That whole range of things, I think, mattered then. I think has continued to matter. And I think that for that's an important issue for this community, for the wider community. And so within the world of journalism, that's one of the things I'm really happy I spent some time on.
SPEAKER_01That's something to be proud about, really um being uh ahead of the times in so many ways, thinking about these issues before it worked its way into mainstream culture in a
From Catholic seminary to journalism to ordained ministry
SPEAKER_01lot of ways. You grew up Catholic. Yes. And you even spent some years in seminary before choosing journalism. I'd love to hear a little bit about that experience. What made you walk away from that path? And then there's an interesting twist. You walked away from that path, but then eventually you end up back in ordained ministry. So take us through that journey.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, so I was uh I went to a Catholic seminary near Green Bay as a sophomore in high school. I was there for three years of high school, two years of college. Was really interested in the potential of being a priest. At the end of your sophomore year in college, you had to go somewhere else. What would be called, in church terms, a major seminary. So I had to choose something, and I was really interested in what was going on in the broader world. This was 1968, 69, a lot happening in the world. Thought, well, I think I'd like to go somewhere and experience more of that first and then figure out what it is I want to do. So I came to Madison at the university as a junior in the fall of 1969. Was very involved at St. Paul's Catholic Center on campus, which was also very involved in a lot of the social movements that were happening here at the time. So I got more involved in those, and this is really where I want to put my effort. I got a degree in sociology, which is a wonderful degree. You can't do much with it until you get your doctorate. And I didn't want to do that. Took a year off and did it, worked at the Catholic Center on staff part-time and was a janitor somewhere and did those kinds of things. But all the time I was writing because I like to write. And so I thought, well, maybe I should go into journalism. So I went to the journalism school here as a graduate student, got a degree while I was doing that, got a job at the Cap Times. Stayed involved at the various Catholic parishes we were part of over the years. But towards the end of the 1990s, both my wife and I were saying this particular parish we're in now just is not working. We don't feel as connected. The community that we'd had previously wasn't there. And while there were many things within traditional Catholicism we disagreed with, we could overlook those when the community was strong. When the community became less important to us, the issues became more important. Like we need to find something else that's gonna nourish our spirituality. So I was designated to go out on a quest and find something and visited a number of churches and came across what was then Lake Edge United Church of Christ on the east side of Madison and thought, I think we like this. This is good, let's go. She liked it. We joined, we said in words that I think should be etched somewhere. Let's not get very involved here. Obviously, we failed and we got very involved. And I learned that the UCC had a program, it's called lay pastors. I thought, well, that'd be kind of interesting. I'll do that. And the more I did it, the more I liked it. And sort of that old sense of call from my younger days came back. I think I'd like to get ordained. So I got on the ordination track, and then in 2007 was ordained.
SPEAKER_01And 10 years uh more, but 10 years sort of officially in the pastorate, right?
SPEAKER_0310 years at Memorial United Church, Christ in Fitchburg. And then I thought I retired in 2017. Or I think someone described it as redeployed. That would be redeployed, yes. And did a you know a variety of things, and then Jessica Patchett, who was the pastor at Christ Presbyterian Church, came here during COVID. She also had a background in journalism, so people said, You guys ought to know each other. And so she said, after we got to know each other a little bit, I could use some pastoral help. Could you come here and work for a year as a part-time associate pastor? Yeah, I could do that. It turns out a year for Presbyterians is 14 months, not 12. And then she um was pregnant, so I came back to fill in while she was gone on parental leave. And I've stayed there because I really think it's a neat congregation.
SPEAKER_01As a prisoner, just as a parishioner, yeah. Not in a
How Phil's image of God has evolved
SPEAKER_01formal role.
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_01How has your understanding of God evolved over the decades?
SPEAKER_03Really good question. Yeah, so I mean, I think, you know, growing up Catholic, it wasn't a particularly harsh God when that I understood when I was growing up, but it was a God that really controlled the universe in a lot of way, controlled our lives in a lot of way. I think over time my image of God has shifted to being sort of the force of love in the universe, the force that holds the universe together, that keeps everything going, the force that I want to be connected with, a force that carries me along in good times and in bad times. And the notion that, you know, Jesus was here and Jesus is like the human revelation of what God is about, love and caring and standing up for people who are in trouble, and and that, and then God's spirit sort of sustaining all of this. That all becomes how I think about God now, not necessarily as someone at a control panel doing things.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so that that's really interesting how how that has evolved. How did it bear out in your work, a career as both a journalist and as a pastor?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, probably less so in my career as a journalist, other than one of the connections here is I was the person in the newsroom who knew something about religion. So if there was a religion story to be done, I was often the one to do it. I wasn't a technical, that wasn't my beat. That was just the extra thing I would do, which I loved. It was great. So I was talking to a lot of different people about their faith and the church's involvement in the world. But as a pastor, where it this kind of became, it really became important for me to think about people's views of God are different and how they understand God's work in their lives differs, particularly when there's a crisis. Why did God do this to me? And that's not a good time for a long theological discussion. It's like, yeah, let's just, you know, can you sense that maybe in the midst of all this, even in the trouble, God is with you? To use that kind of phrasing. And at a different time when maybe we're not in the midst of a crisis, like, tell me what you think about God. How do you envision God? Ask that question that I was had been asking myself over time.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, really good pastoral advice. One of the things I've admired about you is the way you
Bridging progressive and conservative Christians
SPEAKER_01work uh effectively ecumenically across faith traditions, but even within a diverse faith tradition like Christianity. I know you have lots of contact and interactions with uh progressive Christians, but also conservative Christians. Feels like those two worlds are often embattling one another around all kinds of issues. But but but what would you say to both sides of that continuum at this juncture of history?
SPEAKER_03It's a continuum that stretches pretty wide. And I think there are people on the edges of both sides of that who really don't want to talk to each other, and there's just gonna have to accept that as a reality. But I think there are a lot of folks who very strongly believe in a very traditional view of Christianity or a very progressive view of Christianity that are quite willing to listen to somebody else as long as they think they're being respected. And I think the respect part is a really important word there. And one of the things I've tried to do around this community, and Upper House has been a help in this, is getting together with people who aren't in the same slice of Christianity as I am, and getting to know them as people and as friends, and being able to say, well, we look at it differently, but there's this Jesus person we all kind of attach ourselves to, and we're not the first people in history to have different understandings of what Jesus meant and what Jesus taught. And so can we understand that? And it's not just, I mean, certainly within the whole Western Christianity, which I'm more familiar with, but you have Orthodox. Christians. And you have all these other parts of Christianity that are really interesting. I think it's fascinating to learn from them and then to say, how does that affect me? How can I understand that? Small story about so within Christian traditions, there are very different understandings of what communion Eucharist is all about. For Catholics, is this is the real body and blood of Christ. For a lot of progress, well, it's a good memory. We should have this meal together. And people have fought over that for a long time. And one of my worship professors, when I was on this whole journey, talked about, you know, for some of the Eastern churches, yeah, something special happens. That's a really good answer because that embraces everything. It's more than just I'm going to have some bread now. There's a beginning point there without getting into a war. Yeah. We have had wars about these things.
SPEAKER_01Yes, yes, we have. Well, I want to I want to press into this even a little bit more. You use the word a number of times, respect.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01What are practical ways that we can actually demonstrate respect toward others? I know you've had some training in how to interact around conflict. You've a lot of practical experience. What if you have just a couple of ideas about how we demonstrate respect to one another, whatever the situation might be? Maybe start with facial expressions. Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_03You know, like when you look at somebody like, well, you must be crazy, that doesn't begin a good place for a conversation. Yeah. Asking questions. Why do you think that? Why do you what tell me how you got to that? I see it differently. How do you think about it? And then being willing to listen, not say, how'd you think about it? Oh, well, you're wrong. That's not gonna be helpful. And I don't need to convince you that I'm right. And somewhere in that, we may be able to say, okay, we can coexist, even if we see it differently.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03But it's starting out, I mean, the r that I have to respect you as a human being. I hope you'll respect me as a human being. And then let's see where this takes us.
SPEAKER_01One last question here, because I, you know, these are challenges we face, even around our own tables, family reunions, these kinds of things.
Knowing when to step back from a hard conversation
SPEAKER_01How far will you take a conversation? What have you learned about when to stop a conversation, when to let it go, when it feels contested?
SPEAKER_03Yeah. I think if there's a way to end it gracefully, we'd be wanting like, okay, we're not going to agree on this, and this is getting pretty tense. Maybe we should just step back from it for today. Maybe we can try and get another day is one thing. I've also learned there was a group here that I was part of for a little while that would try and bring together liberals and conservatives, and they'd give them an issue, they'd have presentations, and then you would indicate I'm liberal, I'm conservative, I'm in the middle, and you get with people that like you. And go, don't try and convince the other people they're wrong, just listen to what they say. I thought I can do that until I realized how wrong they were. And I felt I need to say something, and it was a real struggle not to. And I think it's that sort of recognizing within yourself, okay, this is going off the rails, and I'm not going to win. Nobody wins those kinds of things. So I need to ramp it back and end it before it gets really ugly.
SPEAKER_01That's helpful. And even being willing to just state, I think this can even feel uncomfortable, state that this, you know, the intensity, it feels like this is getting uh a bit tense. Right. Name it without assigning blame. Right. Being willing to come back to it.
SPEAKER_03Maybe not say you're being totally unreasonable about this.
SPEAKER_00I mean helpful advice.
A word from SLBF Studio
SPEAKER_00We'll get back to John and Phil's conversation in just a moment. One of the things we appreciate most about this conversation is that it reminds us how meaningful conversations don't happen by accident. They're created intentionally. That's exactly why we built SLBF Studio in downtown Madison. To learn more, go to slbf.org slash studio.
Building an interfaith network in Fitchburg
SPEAKER_01I want to turn to the community service a little bit. I know you had some really interesting work in Fitchburg with a wide range of churches. I wonder if you could talk about that experience.
SPEAKER_03So in Fitchburg, there are, you know, maybe a half a dozen different congregations, ranging from Memorial United Church of Christ, pretty liberal, a Lutheran congregation, the ELCA, the more liberal Lutherans, Missouri Synod, the Evangelical Free. So there was a Blackhawk satellite in Fitchburg, right? Another E free that was a startup. There was a fourscore gospel church. And so some of us were thinking about what does Fitchburg need that the churches might be able to offer? What are the services that are missing? Where is there a gap? So I spent some time talking to people in the community and people at the churches. And one of the gaps that could be filled is a need for a personal essentials pantry, toilet paper, toothbrushes, menstrual products, all of those kinds of things. You don't can't get those at a food pantry normally, at least not in those days. So we started talking to churches, said, you know, could we do something about this? Could each of our churches gather things? Could we provide money to support a space? Arbor Covenant Church, which since it's merged with Memorial UCC, but Arbor Covenant said, we've got space you can use. The Missouri Senate Church was very interested in being part of this. So that's where this began is what can we do that might be of useful use to the community that we can do across the nominational lines? Then the mayor said, I think partly because he recognizes there's some political power in bringing people together, said, I'd like to have a meeting with the pastors. Can you help set that up? And out of that came a group called the Fitchburg Faith Community Network, which we meet every quarter with city officials, social service providers, pastors learning about what's needed in Fitchburg. So again, we're all together in the same room where we often weren't before. And then out of that, a number of the pastors or other staff members at the churches began getting together once a month just for a time of prayer together. Different churches, different Tuesday mornings, and we get together for an hour and pray, but also just talk about what's going on in our lives, not just our congregations, but our lives. And there were some pretty intense moments that were happening in people's lives. And the the last piece of that whole puzzle was there was a at the Missouri Synod Lutheran Church, one of their, I think, nursery school teachers was killed by her husband, and her sister was also killed in a domestic violence incident, which is a huge deal for that church. They lived in near the church in Fitchburg. So again, we all sort of gathered around them to offer them what support we could during that time. When there was a crisis, having those networks already existing really mattered. And we could get across the typical lines that would separate us Christians.
SPEAKER_01Well, you've touched on your passion for justice, and I think some of this goes back to the Marinette days, just recognizing that it wasn't a racially diverse community. But where where does your passion come from? How has it been emboldened, strengthened over time?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I think when I was in the Catholic seminary, it was during the days when the Second Vatican Council was happening for Catholicism. So there was a lot of energy. A lot of the priests teaching at the seminary were interested in issues of social justice. The Catholic Church has a very rich social justice tradition. Yes. So I was absorbing a lot of that there. I spent a couple summers working on a program with migrant workers in Oconda, Wisconsin, which is a little south of Marinat. And I was the guy who played with the kids. That was my main job. But in the course of doing that, I learned more about issues around migrant workers. And then, you know, a summer or two in began doing a little, a little write-up each week for the local radio station about what was happening with migrant workers, and there were things happening statewide. And so I began to get more and more involved, not just in, hey kids, let's go play baseball, but also there are bigger issues here that we need to pay attention to. And I got to be friends with some of the migrant workers, even though my Spanish is almost non-existent and their English was minimal. But we learned how to get along. And then, sort of continuing on that thread in college, well, still in high school, Father James Grappi led open housing marches in Milwaukee to try and open up the city for black folks to live more than in just a defined area. And he and some of his youth council members who were black came to the seminary for a day. And it was the first time I'd really ever hung out with folks who were black. That wasn't part of my life in Marinette. And like, and learning the stories that they had to tell. So I went to, in college, went to a week-long program in Chicago at a place called Friendship House, where you lived with a black family, did a lot of things around the city, meeting people who were involved in social justice work, learned what it felt like to be a minority, which I wasn't used to at all. With some very gracious people to help me navigate that. So all of those things I think shaped I should be doing something about this. Those are the origin stories.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's that's right. I didn't know that about you. A really fascinating prevention of domestic violence. That's been something that's been very near and dear to your heart. You've won an award from the governor, statewide recognition uh on that topic. And the church has often failed in this area. I wonder if you could speak to just that issue in general, but
The church's role in domestic violence prevention
SPEAKER_01also where the church has done well, but also really failed in domestic violence prevention.
SPEAKER_03Quick origin story on this. When I was pastor at Memorial in Fitchburg, we'd periodically get calls from advocates. Well, first from people who were trying to recover from domestic violence at the domestic abuse intervention service as shelter looking for financial assistance, and then advocates. So I began to hear stories and talk to people. And I know the woman who's the director of domestic abuse. So I said, can you come over to church and meet with some of us and figure out if there's more we can do so we set up more of a system? But I began thinking about this and talking about it and realizing there's really a place for churches, it's one of the places people in trouble may go for help or may go for help and really get the wrong, totally wrong message. So within the depending on your theology of relationships, this becomes a big deal. So if your tradition says the man is in charge of the household and women should do what the man says, you can find a model that works. When Paul writes about women be submissive to your husbands, Paul also says, and husbands, be gentle and loving to your wives. He doesn't say beat them up. And so even in a conservative church, you can say, look, there's more to us. There's something after the comma. For some churches, they talk about, well, you know, Jesus suffered. You just have to just offer up your suffering. It'll be okay. No, it's not just okay. So we did a number of programs over several years for faith communities here, including Jewish, Muslim, because all of those traditions have both good and bad in them. And to have people have a chance to talk. And then people from days would often come in and here's sort of the basics you need to know. We'd have people come in and talk about the theology around this that can be helpful rather than hurtful. Tried to raise some money for days in the course of all that. So this one, you know, that was we had a group called Um Faith Against Domestic Violence, um, which brought together a lot of leaders, and we had emails that went out. There's still pieces of that that continue, but that was a real focus of mine during the years that was at memorial.
SPEAKER_01And we're a better community because of that. You've
Prophetic witness vs. partisan politics
SPEAKER_01been involved in so many justice issues, standing uh in support of immigration and labor rights. And I imagine there are times where you have to find that fine line between um prophetic public witness and partisan politics. Um because you've got these two parts of who you are. You have scripture that's informing your perspective. You also have this active social justice, and I'm I'm scripture is also informing that, but you have this strong political posture that politics and engagement in the public square is important. Yeah. How do you balance this sense of prophetic witness and political involvement and holding both of those in responsible form?
SPEAKER_03First of all, I mean I've been really fortunate in the at Memorial where I was pastor there, and then at Christmas Friterian, these are churches that are deeply steeped in social justice issues. Right. So, unlike a lot of pastors, you can talk about these things without getting thrown out. There are a lot of pastors these days who, if you even say, Jesus said we ought to care for the hungry, they'll say, Why are you talking about politics? In that sense, I had probably more latitude than a lot of pastors do these days. But I think it was always important to distinguish between anchoring what we're thinking about in terms of the gospels, in terms of Isaiah and Amos, and you know, there's some good prophets out there that we can draw on and to talk about the issues. It's other people who need to worry about the candidates. One of my favorite sermons I gave when I was at Memorial was 2008. Um, the folks at Memorial were very supportive of Obama in the primaries. People were thinking of him as potentially the Messiah. One of my sermon titles was Barack Obama is not my savior. And I tried to draw that distinction between, yeah, there are issues we care about, but we should not attach ourselves to a political person or political party. You know, we should be talking about the issues. I talked about the mayor in Fitchburg. Our goal was not to get him re-elected, our goal was to engage the churches and the civic leaders and the social service agencies, and how can we be helpful? And there are times I think it's worth you, you need to do it that kind of prophetic public witness to stand on the steps of the Capitol. But I think, again, for me, it needs to be anchored in scripture and in Jesus and not in a political thing. Now, as a as a retired pastor, I feel I would never contribute. I mean, first of all, as a journalist, you learn to stand aside. So that was sort of drilled deeply into me. As a pastor, I thought I need not to be contributing to candidates and getting involved in campaigns. Now that I'm retired, occasionally I will contribute to a candidate, which means I get zillions of emails from every other candidate who wants money. And I'm not a big donor, so they're they're not gonna, they're wasting their efforts.
SPEAKER_01Well, you're they they love having you on their list. I'm sure one of the things that's true about you is that you have a lot of resilience. Like I have never seen you, I'm sure you get tired and weary standing for what's right, issues of justice in our community.
The source of Phil's resilience
SPEAKER_01What creates the buoyancy in you? Maybe it is this posture that you don't look to a particular person. You realize candidates will come and go, you're invested, but there's something deeper that is, you know, a much richer mooring for you. Maybe that's not what keeps you resilient.
SPEAKER_03I think that's part of it. I mean, not a part of it is personality. I just, you know, I tend to be a little bit extroverted. Although if I go into a room, I hang back until I see what's going on. I'm not, you know, don't, but yeah, a little bit extroverted. That helps. Um, having networks of friends helps. I try I start the day every day, and now I've got sort of two spiritual thought people who I start the day with, just short readings. Um walking, listening to podcasts. Those things all help. But I think sort of the philosophical framework is one of my favorite phrases is it's only temporary. And that's for the moment, it's also sort of in the scheme of life. This too will pass at some point, this bad moment. It doesn't mean, I mean, at the moment I'm really distressed about what's happening to immigrants in our country, and particularly the cruelty with which a lot of them are being treated and the fear they live in. That gets me really down. And so then, okay, I gotta figure out well, is there something I can do here? That becomes the next question. So what can I do? And I can't do everything for everybody, so how do I make those choices? Maybe that's another piece of the resilience is I can't do everything for everybody. I have to make choices and recognize that I'll do what I can.
SPEAKER_01Well, and that's I think where the networks come into play, where you have a rich network and you have agency. There are ways where you can step forward and and take action. Really helpful. Thank you for diving into that.
Mobilizing for justice without alienating others
SPEAKER_01How do religious communities interact, uh, mobilize around social justice without alienating non-faith communities? Are there any secrets that you might share with our audience about how to do that well?
SPEAKER_03I think it depends on the setting. I think at this point in this country, some of the more conservative Christians are so strident about what they believe they alienate. And that there's some data to suggest it's what has led people away from being part of Christian communities. I think there are certainly places where progressive Christians are so sure we're right about everything that people really don't want to listen to us anymore. So I think maybe having a little less good church, being a little less dogmatic about what we think ought to happen in the world. I mean, it's one thing to say, I think there are problems with poverty, we need to figure out ways to deal with that. There's not one God-ordained system for fighting poverty. Apart from our scriptural mandate, I can look at we ought to do this to deal with poverty, and you can do that. And there may be different ways, and maybe I think my way is better, but not to make that God says you have to do it my way. I think that's an important piece in how churches deal with public issues, and we need to be careful not to do it in a way that says, if you don't do it the way I think you're clearly going to hell.
SPEAKER_01There is a need for well, we talk about this a lot in the academy, intellectual humility, but there is a need for spiritual humility as well.
SPEAKER_03Spiritual humility and and I know it's an odd concept, but political humility.
The state of religion reporting today
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Well, let's turn to the religion reporting. Um Phil, for those who who don't know, I I served 10 years, a decade on the board of Religion News Service. That's because of Phil Haslinger, and actually spent my last three years as the board chair. I know you had a long run there, overlapping with my time there, but also predating my time there. You covered religion at the Cap Times and long, long history here. How is religion being reported today and what changes are needed? What do you see good about religion reporting and where areas of improvement?
SPEAKER_03I think there are many things where religion reporting has improved over the last decade or so. People are aware that religion, for good or for ill, is playing a role in a lot of our public issues. So whether it's how do I understand Islam, how do I understand Christians, Christian nationalists? What's that about? How are they thinking? How do they get to that? There's more digging in. There's also an awareness, I think, of sort of changing spiritual religious patterns of the public at large, that more attention is being paid to that, because part of what makes news is something's changed. Well, there's something that's changing. So I think all of those things are good. Flip side, a lot of the because journalism as a business has really shrunk at the large journalistic institutions, papers that used to have somebody dedicated to reporting religion don't have anyone doing that anymore. And if you don't have somebody who really kind of focuses on that, they don't know what they're talking about when they go out to do the story. And so things get explained wrong. So spending some time training people or having people, just to put in a small plug, the Religion News Association, which is the broader organization, you don't need to be a religion journalist to go to it. Spending a couple days at their annual conference, you begin to make contacts and learn things and learn where you can go for information. The Religion News Service puts out a great resource every month of if you're talking about immigration, here's 175 different places you can go for more information. And they also put out a wonderful glossary. A glossary?
SPEAKER_01A dictionary that just explains different vape traditions, terms within the vape tradition.
SPEAKER_03So I think there's places journalists can go. Newspapers, first of all, and television and social media needs to be aware that these resources are out there, that they can be used, and to invest some time at least in helping people get trained. I think the other, you know, the religion in service, which both you and I have a fond place for, one of the things it has done over the past several years is form a partnership with the Associated Press and with the National Public Radio. And so there's a cross-polonization of both stories and ideas that come out of that, which I think also has helped raise the level of religion coverage, but only for people who look for it there.
SPEAKER_01And probably every story, would you agree that every story has a religious angle? I think I can I could make one for any story. There are a lot of, yeah, there really is, uh, if you probably dig hard enough, uh, a a bit of a religious angle on every story. What about the story of American Christianity? How is that story being told? And are there parts of that story that are underreported, parts parts that are overreported? What would you say about the Christian church and the way that it's reported in the press these days?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I think I think the flaw in the reporting at this point is is one of the ways religion is reported is in conjunction with politics. And so you have a lot of action by Christian nationalists, so they get a lot of attention. And then you have sort of the progressive Christians out there doing something, they get some attention. And the impression casual reader gets is, well, all religion is about is politics. And we know from other studies that for most people nowadays, their first identity is religion Democrat or Republican. It's not Presbyterian or Lutheran. It's, you know, it's their political identity, and the religion tends to be secondary. And I think partly the coverage has driven it that way. Um so I don't think the we in the media have paid enough attention to the some of the nuances, and there's a lot of other people out there who are doing interesting things, and a lot of it is seen in terms of journalism through the perspective of politics and public issues. So how to get past that is different. Certainly, Christianity in America and religion as a whole has shifted a lot, and there are a lot more people who are in, you know, a quarter to a third of the public says, I don't affiliate with anything. I might leave something, I might not, but I don't affiliate. I was listening to a Podcast you all are doing about the evangelicals, and the current one is around missions around the world. And I was listening to it on the way over here, in fact. And they were talking about how American churches want to send missionaries to Korea, which seems very odd because Christianity in Korea is thriving much more than it is here. You know, you're not going to get a lot of stories in American media about global Christianity. But being aware of that, that where Christianity is thriving is certainly not in Europe, and not so much in the US, but in South Korea or in Africa or in Asia. Those are fascinating stories.
SPEAKER_01Right. As a reporter, someone who's you know spent many years in the field, how would you report on a religion religion story? I'm curious, I can't even think of a hypothetical, but maybe maybe you can. How would you approach it systematically? How does a reporter's mind work on that when it comes to a story and you're trying to understand the religious beat, the religious components, threads that you know, narrative threads that run through the story? How would you go about investigating that, reporting that? What kinds of questions would you ask?
SPEAKER_03First of all, let's here's a name, hypothetical, about which I know almost nothing. So this is a good place to start. So it's a wonderful little Greek Orthodox Church on the east side of Madison. So I'm supposed to go do a story about Greek Fest, which they have every year. Okay. Oh, I don't know much about Greek Fest. This is for uh uh an outlet? I mean I'm making this up. Okay, oh, got it. Okay. But so so what do I do? Well, a good place to start might be to find out. So let me find out about this Greek Orthodox Church and what's their history? How long have they been here? They have wonderful icons inside. Where did those come from? How did that happen? Are there icons in every Greek Orthodox church? What role does art play in this church? Is that a story in itself? Beyond just they have really good food at the Greek fest? Are there kind of oh yeah, there was a group that broke away from them and formed another Orthodox church on the west side of Mason? Well, how did that happen? Is there a story there? I mean, just it's asking questions, but spending some time learning about a place and then start asking questions and then not just ask the pastor, but you know, ask some members or look in clip files or you know, where has this church been involved? Are they doing things in the community beyond Greek Fest?
SPEAKER_01So that's where you start that was kind of a master class right there. I don't think most of our minds work that way, but it's fascinating to sit with a reporter and just, I mean, you spun that out, not just the hypothetical situation, but the questions that um I know enough about the Greek Orthodox Church to know they have wonderful icons. Right. Well, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Um, well, that's that's fascinating.
What Madison needs next
SPEAKER_01What's an important step for Madison as a community? Uh, you've had a you know a long run in the city, still super involved. Um, you've had a chance to observe it over 50 years. 50 years, yeah. Um, what's an important next step?
SPEAKER_03I think a really important at an ongoing step, but you know, maybe it goes back to my ideas covering education and having kids in school. I think education, what we do in our school system here in the neighboring communities really matters. I know there's a lot of effort being put into that, right now, particularly around reading literacy, which has been a struggle, and about the gaps between white kids and kids of color. And part of that has to do with white kids have a lot of professional parents and they get a lot of experience of stuff at home. There are black kids who have professional parents and they do better. There are also a lot of black kids who live in poverty, and there's no one there working with them on stuff. So how do we it's easy to say, well, the parents should do more. Parents can't do more. They're holding two or three jobs. So that continual focus on education has always been important in Madison. People have been very generous in Madison with their financial supportive schools, but to sort of continue to work on that and to look at there are alternative models for how this can work. One city school, which was started a number of years ago, is a different model of education. It has its own set of struggles, but people are trying things. So for me, for the future of the city, really focusing on the schools, um, both to make this an attractive place for people to come to, to help the generation that's growing up have a future here or wherever they land. So that's one piece. Related to that is the whole racial issue in Madison. We're still a really white community, not as white as we once were. You know, the largest non-white group in the city is Hispanic. Central, um, with Caraman and Descollar and her team over there are doing amazing work. But uh, most people don't go and hang out there. And, you know, I got I go back to I still haven't learned how to speak Spanish, even though I started hanging out with migrant workers. So I can go over there and be part of things, but not in the same way as if I got to know more people there. So one struggle for me is how do I get to know more people there? There's been a lot of good resources put into the hub for black businesses, the Center for Excellence and Culture, Marcus Allen at Mount Zion building the new family center there. A lot of resources going into facilities, which are great. How do we as not black, not Hispanic, not Asian people get to know people? So it's not just, well, I'm gonna send them some money in there, I've done my thing. And in that, how do we begin to knit some of the divides? And it's for a lot of people, it's very scary. What if I say the wrong thing? Well, I probably will.
SPEAKER_01And that hasn't stopped you. Sometimes. That's one of the things I admire about you is that you're willing to put yourself out there.
SPEAKER_03And that's that it's not easy. I think for people who are, and I have, you know, that's one of the experiences you get from journalism. I'm used to going up to people I don't know and asking them things. It's much harder if that's not been your life to go into a place that's unfamiliar to you.
SPEAKER_01You've gained a lifetime of wisdom.
Advice for young journalists and pastors
SPEAKER_01I wonder if you have a word of wisdom for a young journalist. I'd love to hear what you would tell someone entering that field today in as nuanced a world as they would be confronting with news organizations and all the changes there. And then also a young pastor. What would you say to a young pastor?
SPEAKER_03I think I think in some ways they're similar because I straddle both these worlds. Pay attention to what's really important to you as a journalist, as a pastor. What motivated you to get into this? What are the values that are sort of indisputably interesting? Many years ago I was at a school retreat kind of thing, and they we had to do this exercise on what's the value for which you would give your life. And I ultimately came up with dignity of every human being. Oddly enough, that shows up in the scriptures too, where we're all made in the image and likeness of God. I didn't use that language in the school set. Okay, so for me, that's a core value. Defining for yourself, and they evolve over time, but thinking about that. You'll hear some echoes of other things we've talked about here, but listen to people. As a reporter, as a pastor. Don't come in thinking you've got it figured out. And spend some time learning about the history of whatever you're in. If you're coming new into a community, spend some time learning about Madison, about where we came from, about where these institutions came from. You don't have to do a book, you don't, but know where you can go when something comes up. And for a pastor, what's the history of this congregation you're in? What's the history of the neighborhood that you're serving or the people that you're serving? So you understand you didn't just drop into this and you now can solve all the problems that no one has been able to figure out because people have struggled with all of these problems before. And what have they done and what's worked and what hasn't? So knowing yourself, knowing something about the background of where you are, being able to listen to people and not always thinking you're right.
SPEAKER_01That's a great word to end on. Phil, you would be the first one to admit that you're you're not perfect, but I think you're a real Madison treasure. Maybe that's what we ought to call this series. Um, this little mini-series we're running, our community is much better because of you. Okay. Thanks for your work and thanks for your commitment to the foundation here into Upper House. You've been a real advocate and just a champion for some of the conversations we're trying to prompt here in this place.
SPEAKER_03And as you know, this goes both ways because I really appreciate this place and I appreciate you. You've been a good friend over the years.
SPEAKER_01Thanks, Phil.
SPEAKER_00Phil
Closing thoughts
SPEAKER_00Haslinger's conviction reminds us that respect begins long before agreement. It begins with curiosity, with asking good questions, listening well, and recognizing the dignity of every person we encounter. In a culture that rewards certainty and outrage, that's a remarkably hopeful way to live. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, leave a review, and share it with someone who would enjoy the conversation. Also, consider visiting slbf.org slash studio to find other podcast offerings. That's slbf.org slash studio. Until next time, keep looking upward and living with purpose. Go in peace.